Diversity & Inclusion

All Work and No Play? Think Again: an Interview with Play Out Underwear + NYC PRIDE TIPS

Liz Leifer, Chief Creative Officer and Abby Sugar, Co-Founder of Play Out

Liz Leifer, Chief Creative Officer and Abby Sugar, Co-Founder of Play Out

NYC Pride is just days away and WERKIN is thrilled to be a part of the local LGBTQ+ community of businesses. WERKIN’s own Alex D’Sa, People Experience Lead, sat down with Abby Sugar, co-founder and Liz Leifer, Chief Creative Officer of Play Out Underwear, an NYC-based inclusive underwear brand.

Alex D’Sa: Thank you so much for doing this interview with us! Play Out is such an incredible company. What was your journey starting this company?

Abby Sugar: So I founded Play Out with an ex-business partner; we launched officially in 2014 at Lingerie Fashion Week in the Fall of 2014. We had an amazing reception then, and still to this day I think queer fashion in the past just 3 or 4 years has really exploded. When I was doing it in 2014, not a lot of people were paying attention to queer fashion and I got a lot of questions along the lines of, “well, what do you think of this trend?” and my answer was always:

This isn’t a trend. This is who we are.” We’re doing this because we couldn’t find fashion or underwear specifically that we were comfortable wearing, that made us feel sexy, that was gender-affirming, sexuality-affirming, human-affirming for who we were and how we wanted to express ourselves.

Now there are a few other brands doing it and a lot more design happening which is amazing because you want everyone to be their truest selves. In 2015, we also did a photoshoot series with “young” (and I say young meaning “diagnosed-with-breast-cancer-under-the-age-of-45”) breast cancer survivors who had had double mastectomies without reconstruction. And similarly, when we did this photoshoot in 2015, that was a conversation that a lot of people weren’t having. One of our friends was 31 when she was diagnosed, and she was queer, and so it was this intersection of queerness/gender identity/healthcare/breast cancer/assumptions of what a woman should look like… and underwear... because it’s intimate.

It was interesting because I was really good friends with Liz at the time, and we weren’t business partners yet. Liz has her own journey with a preventative double mastectomy. That was 2015, and my business partner and I went our separate ways in 2016 and Liz joined me in 2017. And here we are!

Liz Leifer: And I can’t believe we just had our two year anniversary as business partners!

AD: Before we get to Liz joining the team, how did the journey start for you?

AS: My ex-business partner and I came up with the idea together. It really came about because my business partner, could not find underwear that she wanted to wear and was comfortable wearing. I spent hours, days, trying to find affordable underwear that was active and stylish and fun. I like using the word “active” because I think women are portrayed as passive a lot. Men’s underwear gets superhero designs, and trucks, and car crashes(!) and I’m thinking... “well why isn’t everything available for everybody?” So I spent hours trying to find this. In 2011-2012, when I first started researching, there was nothing. It was Victoria’s Secret, and super lacy lingerie. So we had another conversation and I said “we have to make this” and we were both just crazy enough to do it.

I had no background in fashion. I’ve now been doing this for 7 years. So I know what I’m doing: I know my sourcing, I know my supply chain, I know my job. But in terms of getting started it was a lot of learning, connecting, networking, mentors.

AD: Did you have any notable mentors at the start of your journey?

AS: Not mentors so much as helpful friends. So one of my friends who’s the ex of… that’s another thing about being LGBTQ is that the community is really small and the community also consists of a lot of your exes! One of my dear friends, her ex-girlfriend is a costumier on Broadway. So she was one of the first people I talked to about where to start.

Actually, I would say that I had a bit of a mentor. I met mine through my alumni association. I went to Barnard College, and when I was first starting to work on this idea I started going to more networking events. Someone I spoke with asked if I knew someone who happened to be a notable alum of the college who is very high up at a successful underwear company. I had no idea who they were.

So I sent her an email through the alumni network along the lines of: “I’ve done nothing, I’m trying to learn, etc.” and she was super encouraging and invited me to come and visit their offices and their showroom and some of their manufacturing facilities. And since then we meet up at least 3 or 4 times a year and update each other. She’s just been amazing to talk to.

AD: Do you feel in that sense you have something to offer her as well?

AS: Absolutely. Sometimes we just sit there and go “these problems, they’re the same”, but she’s at a much grander level.

When people ask me how to find a mentor, I always say alumni groups. Being in New York, in fashion, in NYC, in London, in Paris… when I decided to do this it was “oh, go take some classes at the Fashion Institute of Technology”, “go to the garment district and have meetings with people.” Having access to that stuff is significant. And then Lingerie Fashion Week launched. We just figured it out. So that’s my personal motto:

“F*cking Figure It Out”

AD: Great. So we get to 2017 and Liz joins the team… how did that happen?

LL: Abby and I had been friends socially for years and we were kind of spitballing and I was doing some brand consulting for her: what are the next steps? Where do you want to take this next? She was shopping for a new business partner anyway. Behind the scenes, I was at a place with my corporate job where, on the heels of what’s been happening with our current administration, I definitely was feeling like I wanted to do something that was more of service to my community. And so when we were having this conversation, we were in such alignment that it was so… organic, and it was really clear that we both had a very strong vision of what this company could turn into with the right business partner and the person who could share that vision and the strengths that were needed to complement Abby’s strengths and as we were talking about it we were kind of like… “or… I could do… it? Maybe? What?!”

It just made so much sense that it seemed it would be stupid not to. When the universe puts something like this in front of you, she’s just saying “I can’t make it any simpler for you people, just do it!”

AD: Did it occur to you beforehand when you were consulting or did it happen right then?

LL: No, it just happened. This was the pivotal conversation. And then everything just steamrolled from there. And as soon as we signed paperwork and made everything official, we made our marching orders of what we were going to update - our website, shopping platform UX, everything from the ground up. So we set out on a mission to accomplish all these goals, to find new sourcing for all of our materials, how they were constructing, who was constructing them with us and did all of that in just about a year. And we had a big expansion, an explosion of offerings in more styles and designs in a wider size range… we came so hard into our new product line.

LL: And we had seriously been going non-stop. It was another probably 7/8 months before I left my 70 hour a week job. And it was really organic, it was totally meant to be. And it happened in one of those ways where you couldn’t orchestrate it better.

AD: It’s a big thing to make that leap from the corporate world. Did you have anyone who you sought advice from?

LL: I did. I have different people in my life for different subject matter. The person I go to for business advice is not the same person I go to for love advice (laughs). And I had a mentor when I was at my corporate job, and I chatted to them and I had a serious sit-down and said: “These are the things that are important to me, I feel like I can’t accomplish both of these at the same time. I can’t do it at this job.” They were very nice, “If you feel like you can be of more service doing something else, who am I to say no?” That is something that is bigger than any job you would have and if that’s what you want to be doing and that’s what you’re willing to sacrifice and risk for it then you should do it.

And that’s the biggest thing… and I say it all the time in interviews but when I was a kid, my dad said to me:

You will have moments in your life where you will have to risk everything you have to get what you want, and you have to understand what those stakes are and you have to be willing to put everything on the line to move to the next place that you want to be. Because that’s sometimes how opportunity presents itself.

My eight year old brain was chewing on it so hard, and I would ask him follow-up questions over the years… and then I started having moments in my life where I had to be really clear on what my bottom line was, what was my endgame and always have that in my sights. So no matter how tumultuous things are in the moment, or no matter how unsafe you can feel sometimes, always have your eye on that end goal.

AS: But I think that’s something I try to lean into as well. When I’m afraid of something or when it makes me really scared, but if I know that I’m solid in my core, then it’s actually the right thing to be doing. If I’m not scared about it, then it’s not actually going to make a difference.

LL: It’s not a legitimate risk. And there are risks that are appropriate to take. You’re not going to get ahead, you’re just not going to get to extreme levels that people get to in success without being a risk-taker, it’s just not possible.

AD: This mentor that you mentioned Liz, and your own bottom line, if they had said: “yeah I don’t think it’s a good idea, I think you need to stick at this job a bit longer.” If everyone was saying that, do you think you…

LL: I still would have done it. 100% I will seek lots of counsel. And I will take everything under advisement. I will weigh it out very carefully. But I will make a decision based on my gut. Because I have nothing else that is as true to me and knows me as well as my internal moral, ethical compass. And it 100% was ”We’re doing it!”

AD: And so what’s the next step for Play Out?

LL: We have been doing a friends and family round. We have secured our first convertible note that should come through soon and we’re going to use that to move to the next level so that we can advance our traction to go for a larger round. And we’re going to move into athleisure and activewear and be a lifestyle brand.

AD: Amazing! Are both of you into fitness?

AS: Well I’m a personal trainer!

LL: Athleisure is one of the largest growing sectors. People live in it, everyone wants to wear it all day long.

AS: The thing is, having had experience as a trainer, wearing gym clothes all the time… it does get old. I always felt, personally, like I was a slob. But if it was fashion, it’s a different thing. But also fashion for who we are - which is queer...so, gender-affirming fashion. The funny thing, the joke I always make, is you can go to a gym and look around and I can see either the tomboy athletes who may or may not be straight, versus the lesbians, versus the super-straight girls, because the super-straight girls are in the tight-knit spandex, and the crop tops or the sports bras. And the lesbians are in t-shirts and old sports team jerseys.

AD: I wear my old PE shorts to the gym!

AS: Exactly! And like men’s PE shorts. But if we can make that fashionable…

AD: And can people buy this soon?

LL: It’s in R&D right now and it really needs to be right because I don’t want to bring something to the marketplace that is on the heels of something else. I want it to be something that really speaks to gender equality. It’s about the artistry, the quality, the way that it is presented… it needs to be all access for people. I don’t want it to be something where we take a pair of sweatpants and slap a name on it.

AS: We’re designing.

LL: Creating the products. we have an amazing muscle shirt that we designed for World Pride actually, and it’s so great because it has a drop waist in the back. And it’s a traditional muscle-tee but it comes out to a point on the average shoulder where it’s really flattering to the upper arm and has a nice neckline that allows us to have pretty imagery on it. And it’s freakishly buttery soft. And I think it has to be a more overall fashion statement that you’re making.

AS: When Liz and I were aligned, it wasn’t just about the business, and what we wanted to do, it was also aligned on our aesthetics and style. And I always say this because it’s easier for me to promote everybody else… but a big part of what we do is prints, and a lot of those designs Liz hand paints - paintings that we then digitize and print on the fabric to make our underwear and some of our tank tops.

AD: So how do you have time to sleep?

LL: Not a lot of sleeping happens!

AS: Nope!

AD: So what do you do for self care?

AS: We both work out

LL: Yeah the gym makes me happy. That’s a nice re-centering time. Painting makes me extremely happy, painting for my own enjoyment. And I definitely let loose on the dance floor on occasion… at the ripe age of 49, I try to stay out at least once every quarter until 3-4am dancing, just to know that I can still do it!

AS: But you know, I work out at least 4 or 5 days a week. When I’m working out for that hour/hour and a half, I’m not answering my phone, I’m not answering my emails. I have to be in this moment. I’m also a writer, I read a lot. I take 20 minutes, I drink my coffee, I read or I do some writing to keep centered.

LL: I look at excessive amounts of art. I’m super visual. I go to museums or galleries or combing the Internet for artists I don’t know of yet and studying their work and looking at in general what’s happening in fashion. And for me because I’m so visual, that’s the stuff that sticks with me. I find things in the most interesting places.

AD: Do you have an LGBTQ role model? I have loads but I want you to pick one!

LL: Oh I need a second!

AS: I know! I go to writers… I go to Audre Lorde, I go to Adrienne Rich, I go to Maggie Nelson, who is a contemporary writer who is really amazing.

LL: Butler is huge for me.

AS: Oh yeah Judith Butler, the next person I was going to name!

LL: There’s so many people. Right now there are endless amazing people - Janet Mock. So many people making these amazing moves. I’m personally celebrating Pride by going to see John Cameron Mitchell on Broadway. He really made a massive impression on me at the time. When Hedwig came out in 2001, there was something about it - so much pain and so much sorrow that has translated into hope, and self-discovery. It was really eye-opening for me and he’s always been somebody… I don’t follow a lot of famous people on Instagram but I follow him. I’d be a total goober if I met him!

AD: What are you looking forward to most about Pride?

AS: We’ve been working on Pride Week a ton, and are two main things that we’re been participating in.

  1. The first is the dapperQ AirBnb pop-up space is having a big queer fashion presentation and panel. We’re one of five designers on the panel, with 7 underwear models. The topic of the whole night is Queer Fashion as Visual Activism, so that’s going to be really awesome. So that’s from 5-7pm on June 28th. It’s free, you just have to RSVP. There will be free wine and beer.

    At 6pm we’re going to have a panel discussion moderated by Anita, the owner of dapperQ which is a queer fashion website - the biggest queer fashion website in the US, maybe globally. Liz is speaking on the panel, and our models are going to be hanging around. I was in the space today, it’s a really cool space and the capacity is kind of small - 250 people; dapperQ does an event at the Brooklyn Museum that has around 2,000 people.

    RSVP and get there on time because there’s going to be a line!

    But AirBnb is doing this popup space and they have events the whole weekend, so we’re the Fashion Friday night programming and then they’re having a Queer Bazaar where queer makers can sell their stuff on Saturday.

  2. And then Sunday…

    LL: Yeah then Sunday I’m on the official Stonewall float which will be fun. And then afterwards we have models and the party starts (and possibly gogo dancers) at a party at the Jane ballroom after the Pride parade.

    AS: So for Sunday June 30, which is the official Pride March, we partnered with Wanda Acosta who is a legend in the New York City lesbian nightlife scene. She hosted a lesbian party on the Lower East Side at this bar called Cafe Tabac in the early 90s… she’s history.

    LL: Her invitations to parties and polaroids of her are in the NY Historical Society Stonewall50 show. We’re super excited to be doing this with her and to be the only brand working with her on this is awesome.

    AS: It’s Wanda’s party on Sunday and it’s taking place at the Jane hotel and we’re gonna have 5-7 underwear models in the crowd posing with people, dancing with people, it’s going to be really fun.

    LL: And that’s an all-genders party. So it’s great, we’re going to have super broad representation with our models.

AS: On Saturday, we’re going to the Pier Pressure Yacht party. Our friend Antonia, she and her business partners have a new website called QueerCut which is a new queer fashion website and marketplace. Antonia is also a party promoter and so QueerCut is sponsoring part of the party and is going to have us being one of the designers who have samples of stuff for people to check out.

And of course the LBTQWomen conference on Wednesday is going to be great!

Want to learn more about how you can build your business or career during Pride? Sign up to apply to WERKIN’s NYC WorldPride Mentoring program here.

Diversity & Inclusion Beyond Advertising: Turning Good Intentions into Real Action

For years, the advertising industry has been criticised for its tendency to objectify women and reproduce damaging gender stereotypes. A review by the UK’s Advertising Standards Agency (ASA) suggested that harmful stereotypes in advertising limit people’s aspirations and opportunities and play a signifiant role in maintaining gender inequality. However, in recent years there has been a wave of advertisements containing uplifting and empowering messages about women. In the contemporary era, women have higher levels of purchasing power and companies are striving to appeal to female consumers. Furthermore, in the context of #MeToo and #TimesUp and a renewed enthusiasm for gender equality, companies are keen to market themselves as allies of the feminist movement through a phenomenon known as ‘femvertising’. 


SheKnows Media defines femvertising as ‘advertising that employs pro-female talent, messages and imagery to empower women and girls’. Examples include campaigns such as Always’ ‘Like A Girl', Dove’s ‘Real Beauty’ and Pantene’s ‘Shine Strong’

These campaigns have been highly successful and these brands have been celebrated for their empowering messages. Dove has reported multi-billion dollar profits since starting its femvertising campaigns, demonstrating how these campaigns also drive sales. 

Studies have shown a strong correlation between femvertising and positive attitudes towards brands, that also serve as a predictor of buying decisions. For example, a 2017 study by Drake found that women exposed to femvertising had more positive attitudes towards the ads and brands as well as higher purchase intentions. A survey conducted by SheKnows Media similarly found that 52% of women specifically bought a company’s product because they liked the way they represented women in their advertising and 46% followed a company on social media for similar reasons. 

Increasingly, consumers evaluate a company’s social impact before making a purchase decision. According to research conducted by the Haas School of Business at Berkeley, more than 9/10 millennial consumers would switch to a brand associated with a progressive social cause. It therefore comes as no surprise that more ethical companies are performing better financially, as demonstrated by global rankings published by the Ethisphere Institute. 


Femvertising helps brands appear ethically conscious and drives sales, whilst promoting positive and empowering messages about women. So, what’s the problem?

Katie Martell questions whether femvertising is a form of ‘faux-feminism’ and exploits rather than promotes the struggle for gender equality. Though pro-women adverts help to promote empowering narratives and diversify representations of women in the media, she suggests that they are ‘too frequently only deployed as lip service by companies who exhibit less than ideal behaviour internally’

Many companies that use femvertising fail to practice what they preach when it comes to gender equality within their own organisation. For example, in 2015 a well known professional services firm released a video called ‘Glass Ceiling: Continuing our commitment to the next generation of women leaders’, but in August 2018 the company was hit with a $400 million class-action lawsuit that claimed it was responsible for a number of discriminatory practices, including not promoting women and penalising employees for taking maternity leave. 

Similarly, in 2017 Audi positioned itself as a champion of gender equality in its ‘Daughter’ Super Bowl commercial. However, at the time only 2 out of 14 of the company’s executives were women and it had no women on its management board. 

Furthermore, the ‘Fearless Girl’ campaign, intended to spark conversations about gender diversity in corporate leadership, was commissioned by a well known US based financial firm, whose board of directors is 73% male and who recently agreed to a $5 million settlement over allegations that it pays hundreds of female employees less than their male counterparts. 

Beyond Femvertising 

Clearly, there is a need to go beyond femvertising and commit to real change. Katie Martell has designed a ‘femvertising litmus test’ which can be used to examine whether a company is genuinely championing gender equality by comparing their adverts to their internal business practices.  

Credit:  Katie Martell
Credit:  Katie Martell

If a company is profiting from ideals of gender equality, they must not embody the opposite in their own internal practices. Ultimately, companies must go beyond femvertising and live up to their own feminist ideals. This means committing to equal pay for equal work, having women and other underrepresented groups in positions of leadership, adopting inclusive hiring practices, providing substantial maternity and paternity leave, making unconscious bias training available to employees and creating an inclusive company culture. In order for femvertising to be genuine rather than exploitative, the advertisement in question must reflect a broader, sustained effort by the company to achieve gender equality and higher levels of diversity and inclusion within its own organisation. 


WERKIN works to help companies that are committed to making themselves more inclusive, diverse and gender equal. How? Through Modern Mentorship. WERKIN’s Modern Mentorship is a tech-enabled platform that uses algorithms to match employees with roles based on their interests, experience and skillset. This raises the visibility of underrepresented talent and helps companies become more diverse and equal by reducing unconscious bias, as the skills of employees are identified using impartial technology rather than human instinct. WERKIN’s technology also helps companies build their mentorship and sponsorship programmes which helps them develop and retain diverse talent. 

Femvertising is a phenomenon that is gaining momentum and is likely to increase as brands strive to appeal to female consumers and market themselves as more socially responsible. However, a company’s commitment to gender equality in their advertising must be reflected in their internal business practices. Using technology such as that provided by WERKIN enables companies to practice what they preach and truly work towards creating a more diverse and equal society. 

Episode 23: WERKIN with Andrea Pfeffer on pampering and participation

Copy of Wellness to me means a balance. Wellness is participation and pampering. Wellness is a two-minute 36-second skincare routine.png

This week, we’re WERKIN with Andrea Pfeffer, founder of Pfeffer Sal a skincare clinic in Fitzrovia, often touted as a respite from the chaos of Central London. Andrea talked with WERKIN founder and CEO Hayley Sudbury about business, babies, balance, and the importance of washing London off your face each night.

A new model for skincare: experience and education

Before opening Pfeffer Sal, Andrea launched small businesses across fashion, marketing, and PR. While she learned a lot from her previous careers, she found herself “in a position where I'd worked so hard and was actually really unsatisfied. So I wanted to do something that not only made myself feel good and proud, but also made other people feel good.”

Having always been interested in skincare and overall health, the entrepreneur naturally found herself taking notes on what worked and what didn’t in the skincare services she personally used, “I had a lot of disappointing experiences for myself and I felt that the exposure that I had wasn't what I wanted to experience as a client.”

Andrea describes her frustration with the ways in which the beauty industry can attempt to exploit insecurities in order to sell products and services. But as she sees it, “the beauty industry has the most amazing power to make you feel incredible about yourself. It's such a perfect time to celebrate the uniqueness that we all have and to offer a business or a service that has the power to do that.”

She views skincare as not only a service or product, but a form of education such that clients can leave with a better knowledge of their skin and how to care for it. “Our primary objective is skin health through education advice and support, and that's probably the heart and soul of what the business is about.”

To change the model, there is no commission system at Pfeffer Sal, employees are not rewarded for selling products, “I don't want a team of salespeople. I want people making genuine recommendations on how you can improve your skin health without feeling that pressure we all feel when we're being sold to. It's not a great experience.”

Instead, Andrea has sought to create an experience for clients made up of “the little touches throughout the whole space, though we might not shout about them, but that demonstrate the heart and soul and integrity of truly believing in what we're saying.”

Your Business is Your Baby. Your Baby is your Baby.

What’s it like to create that client experience while going through your own transformational experience, say having a baby? As Andrea puts it, “your business is your baby and your baby is your baby. And I continually struggle with the feeling that I'm not giving it enough attention either.” But the challenge of navigating both “definitely teaches you to be much more efficient with your time.” Caring for a baby while growing a business, in many ways for Andrea, has given her focus to give her full self to each dimension when necessary, “having a baby or another little person that actually is your focus enables your headspace,” while switching from business mode to baby mode, “I just need to focus on this other person. It forces you to have a better work life balance and puts things in perspective."

For Andrea, the common skill she’s picked up for both parenthood and entrepreneurship is a strengthened intuition, what she calls “gut intelligence.” Every child is different, but what helps parenting is gaining the confidence to trust your gut. Similarly, “the intuitive aspect of running your own business is so important because you don't have time to sit there and think about one decision for two weeks. So you have to continually make decisions on the fly, and your gut intelligence, is absolutely vital to succeed, whether it's right or wrong, it’s at least moving forward and making a decision. For me I needed to listen to my gut more and when I knew something wasn't right, I needed to follow that.”

Wellness: A Balance of Participation and Pampering

Andrea’s business, Pfeffer Sal, started within a growing “wellness industry.” But what does wellness mean for her?

“It means a balance. Extreme wellness, 10 hours sleep every night; yoga every morning; 20 minutes mindfulness meditation every morning and night; noting down my feelings and emotions in my book on the side of the bed; never having a glass of wine; etc. etc. etc. That's never going to happen. That's not wellness to me. That is stress. But for some people that kind of discipline provides them with a sanctuary and security.

 Wellness to me is equally about participation and pampering. Wellness to a lot of people is about participation. It's about setting very stressful goals and objectives. They have to practice yoga four times a week. They have to do this, they have to do that. Let's take London for example.

 A huge amount of people in London have got a massive amount of participation down pat. We Londoners participate in everything, whether it's a brainstorming session, whether it's an extra two hours at work, whether it's a crazy commute. We know how to participate. That's not the problem. We don't know how to be pampered, and that's where I feel that there's a huge gap psychologically and physically. Pampering that you received from someone else. It could be a treatment, but pampering you also give yourself at home. Now I'm not saying you should have a 45-minute bath. I don't even have time for a 45-minute bath.”

How can you pamper yourself when you don’t have time for a 45-minute bath? It can be as simple as your two-minute, 36-second nighttime skincare routine. Andrea recalls a recent post she shared on Instagram,

“These are the seven products I use in my night routine, seven ‘steps.’ That's, quite high-maintenance isn't it? I timed the routine, and it was two minutes, thirty-six.

That's some pampering that takes two minutes, 36 seconds. That's realistic for most people in London. Wellness to me is a two-minute, 36 routine.”

Happy Parents, Happy Business

Apart from finding her own participation and pampering balance to manage a full life, how can larger institutions support women, parents, and anyone else with caregiving responsibilities to maintain their career progression?

“I have been very fortunate in that I haven't really experienced much gender discrimination in the workforce. I've always tended to always place myself in quite female orientated industries. From my experience of being a mum, what I would love is much greater financial incentives for businesses to set up childcare and support whether that's for dads or for mums. I think you and your business are going to win on so many levels because if you have happy parents, with happy children. Their productivity and their work flow is going to be more creative and more energized.

 Society, which is in the government's best interest, wins because you're opening up opportunity to employ greater talent, a greater pool of people because you're able to offer that support and infrastructure.”

Finally, for those launching a business or a baby or both, what’s the one thing we can do to keep our skin healthy? Remember to wash London off your face.

“Honestly, from a skin health perspective, every night you need to wash your face with a cleanser. The best way to think about it is you're going to bed with London on your face, literally. You have to wash your face. That's number one and number two is change your pillowcase at least once a week. And your face is going to be so happy.

For more from Hayley’s conversation with Andrea, including how NASA air filters can help your skin, the value of tenacity, and how your inner circle of friends can be your most valuable advisory board, listen to the full podcast on iTunes or SoundCloud.